Masters of Beauty Ep. 4: LaserCap Hair Growth
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Dr. Shah:
I'm really proud to introduce our guest today, uh, who is Dr. Michael Rabin Uh, Dr. Michael Rabin is not only a doctor, uh, but he is the inventor and founder, um, of laser cap company. We can see that cat flapping in the background. Whoa, that's cool. And, uh, this was formed in 2006, uh, him and he collaborated with another doctor. It's a Dr. David Smith and they collaborated with their Harvard based photo medicine expert, Dr. Michael Hamblin, uh, and they together, um, with another doctor Dr. Robert Haber came up and innovated this light-based device for global Bucan HETI, uh, health industries. Uh, the first commercial product that was available was laser cap. And so, um, we're going to talk about that a little bit. And this is one of the first products, the first product, uh, that affects, um, uh, thinning of the hair patients were at the Nina here, and this affects up to 50% of adult women, um, who knows what percentage of men probably higher, depending on what age we're talking about 80%. And, you know, uh, so it's, it's, everyone's going to have some sort of hair loss. So we're gonna talk about this. So before we get started with what was kind of your driving force, inventing laser cap. So what was kind of the steps that took place for you to kind of, uh, come up with laser cap? Oh gosh.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, as you say, I'm a hair loss suffer. This is all, this is all transplant right in the front here. And the back's all scout micro-pigmentation, I'm essentially ball. And, uh, the laser cap is for patients with earlier thinning hair follicles are gone. You're, you're not going to revive them. This is for, you know, underperforming follicles and the, and the light, uh, uh, the mechanism which we'll get into I'm sure later it basically revs up the, uh, the cellular respiration in the follicle improves, uh, hair, uh, production, This, as you know, for the children, I did this for the, for future generations because it was a little late for me.
Dr. Shah:
Uh, and so what was your sort of, um, what, what sort of took you to that part and say, Hey, let's bring this onto market. How do I bring this into market? What were some of those steps that kind of brought later capture fruition?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, I assembled a team. Uh, I recruited, uh, the top photo medicine, uh, guy in the country, Mike Hamblin, out of Harvard. I, I, uh, recruited, uh, a very good optical physicist, uh, MIT PhD, David Smith, who happens to be a local guy in Cleveland. And then I, uh, uh, collaborated with one of the top hair surgeons in the world. Uh, Bob Hayburn, who's a board certified dermatologist, not a plastics guy, but dermatologists. They can, you know, when they're trying, they can do transplant. And so with that, collaboration created, uh, we created laser cap, came out of the lab in like 2010 with the, uh, the first embodiment of it. And it has the dubious distinction of being the most widely copied will have trouble with the patents, but I have missed up that, that, you know, they don't know what I'm doing next. It's the most widely copy technology for a light-based ever growth in the world.
Dr. Shah:
Wow. That's it, that's both a, a great honor. And it's also, uh, um, you know, it's probably a source of frustration. They say, if you can't beat them, you copy it. Right.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, we only work with physicians and all the copies go try to go to the consumer and it just doesn't work out. This needs to be professionally administered. So we only work with doctors
Dr. Shah:
And, and, and that kind of brings us to like another question that kind of comes up. And one of the more common questions for my patients is, um, you know, here's laser cap and here is something I can buy an Amazon for. Um, I don't know, a few hundred dollars. What's the difference? Why do I need laser cap?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
The big difference. And I, I actually, uh, I actually created a graphic. The big difference is we're now finding in the, in the latest research that we need much higher energy levels. Now, laser cap, I've done some things with the circuitry, uh, to, uh, basically overdrive the lasers and still stay within compliance. Uh, and we promote much longer treatment times, but we basically want to be way up here on the, uh, uh, as boy era on the biologic effects curve, which is probably more than 20 times the output 20, 20 times, the energy that you're going to get from one of these Amazon devices. And so these generally these devices out there in the consumer market are grossly under.
Dr. Shah:
Um, I think the other thing that we note is people don't understand the difference, and I know the entrepreneur, I want you to explain it. It would be better for me if the led versus laser, because people oftentimes think an led is the same thing as the laser, clearly it's not. Um, so how would you describe it to one of my patients say, Hey, I'm talking to the founder of laser cap. What's the difference?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, these are lasers interesting. We're finding that interesting. We were finding that it perhaps LEDs at very, very high power may be equivalent to though to the lasers. The research may indicate that the photons from very high powered led may be equivalent, but the LEDs that you may find in the devices, again, just grossly underpowered, and then there's a big difference in the, in the quality of the light. It's a coherent, um, uh, organized light, uh, goes in, uh, in very, uh, organized waves with laser. And it's an incoherent light source just kind of goes all over the place. And it, the biologic effect may be different. It may be superior with laser, but again, the jury is still out. Uh, although they, the, the patients, uh, consumers can not find led at these very high powers, uh, in the consumer market.
Dr. Shah:
Um, and, and kind of going back with this, this kind of, the foundation of this, this research all comes from, I think it's the late 1960s. It is some animal studies looking at, um, basically wound heal. They originally, what were they looking for is 1968
Dr. Michael Rabin:
With a guy who was trying to, I think it was a master. He was trying to, um, uh, he was, uh, radiating the back, uh, uh, of mice that he had shaven to try to induce a cancer in the skin, but this is red light, so it's not ionizing. And he was finding these, these, these mice were growing hair. And so it's like, oh yeah, the light bulb went off. Oh my, you know, we're, we're, we're stimulating a hair regrow with this red line.
Dr. Shah:
It's almost interesting that every hair growth, um, uh, discovery is an accident. It's like Rogaine is an accident. It was for blood pressure for abuse, just kind of an accident for prostate and laser cap. It's not unusual that, Hey, guess what? This was an accidental discovery. So it's kind of, you see this theme with hair that, uh, all of these discoveries
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Looking at Venice cell and look at, I mean, there's been other medical discoveries, but here, especially,
Dr. Shah:
And that kind of leads to the next questions from patients. And I think the next question from patients, and we can answer this maybe with, um, uh, you know, kind of the satisfaction of patients doing this. A lot of patients say, does laser, does it really work? Uh, if I I'm a basic science guy, I like talking about looking at studies, looking at an aspect, and you look at the study in the 1960s, you see that, you know, animals are growing hair, they're actually healing wounds faster. You look in the, um, what's hot in the world of aesthetics and that's kind of, um, a red light versus blue light. And you see these things happening, how they affect our bodies on not just a cellular level, but almost like a sub cellular level. And they asked me, does it work? And now I'm obviously saying obviously yes, but, um, from the founder of laser cap, uh, your thoughts.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Sure, sure. There's, there's quite a bit of literature now. Uh, you know, you, you do a pub med search on LLL T and hair or photobiomodulation and hair, and you'll see a couple of hundred research papers in the last couple of years. And so there's been quite a bit of research lately and the, the, the, uh, double blind placebo controlled studies and the meta analysis of these, uh, devices for hair regrowth, all indicate we're growing hair. And the mechanism, if you talk to Hamblin, uh, your, the light is used in a whole range of conditions. They're using it to treat depression, different, wave length, a higher power, getting to the brain you're using it for frenetic brain injury, reduce the morbidity associated with, uh, with stroke, with heart attack, any dysfunctional cellular process, any cells that have mitochondria where there's some dysfunction are going to respond favorably to the light and, you know, handling can get into, I should have brought his charts, uh, because he's got all, you know, all the biochemical pathways, um, a map, but it's basically, it comes down to improved cellular respiration at the mitochondria. Remember the Krebs cycle from your medical school days, ATP, that's the fuel for the cell. It revs that up, so you can get increased ATP production, and then a whole cascade of biochemical events that result in a better functioning, enters, or better functioning of follicles
Dr. Shah:
That, that keyword that you mentioned is mitochondria that sub cellular improvement. Uh, again, that's and anyone who's in this, uh, this idea of the, of the doctor side, and then you have the health bloggers. And I, I listened to both sides of the argument and, uh, both love mitochondria mitochondria is become a really hot topic and red light and treating things as super hot. So I think it's interesting, anytime you say, I'm going to improve your mitochondrial function, um, you're going to see some positives and it's not surprising. You're seeing those positives happen in, uh, something like here.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Yeah. Well, that's what we're targeting here. I mean, we're not going after a facial rejuvenation. We're not trying to treat a depression or a, you know, a soft tissue injury, you know, this thing, this, and I've got it here, this, this embodiment kind of illustrates it. This kind of showcases the tech. Yeah. It's red light on the head. We're going, you know, we're targeting the follicle. This is the same technology as, um, uh, the, you know, the shell devices, the shell, uh, but, but it, it showcases it so you can get a good visual of it and we actually sell these, but they're sold at a, at a premium.
Dr. Shah:
Um, so if you compare those two devices, um, that's a great topic, cause that's the newest, the newest devices, the shell one, right? The one on the other left on the, uh, that one. Correct.
Dr. Shah:
And I have the one I wear every night. Oh, by the way, I can talk to my, my laser violate your cap experience. So I did a hair transplant, so I'm a hair transplant person as well. Um, and you know, I actually noticed, uh, with laser cap that when I started wearing the device, um, I felt like my hairs were growing a little faster. Uh, my other hairs were kind of going through there. And so, uh, for me, again, it's one of those things. I noticed that some of my hairs, I used try cross me on my head to look at them. And I noticed that some of my hairs that were kind of on the miniaturize side were actually kind of, um, kind of coming back a little bit. Um, my hair is a little fluffier, um, and, uh, that aspect of it. So, uh I'm uh, so for me looking at the different devices out there, I looked at the data and I felt laser cap had the, um, you know, the best, uh, technical hardware, the best setup. Um, so to me that was like, there was no brainer. And if you're going to do something, which is, um, you know, you're going to do that something it's, it's, I'm gonna say 10 50, maybe it's part of your ritual. You better make sure it works because, um, if you're doing, just putting an led on your head, it's doing nothing. What's the point. It's a waste of everyone's time.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, that's for sure. That's for sure. So you've got to go. Patients are always calling me directly, uh, Hey, I want a laser cap. And I said, well, you need to go see a doctor. Well, can I get a laser camp? And I tell him, go find a hair restoration physician that you trust that you believe in and the rest will follow up. And if that doc provide you a laser cap, so be it, if they, if they don't have them call me and I'll make sure that he starts selling the laser tag.
Dr. Shah:
Yeah. It's all, it's all part of that. Um, you compare the, the two different models of laser count. So someone says, let's compare these two models. Um, what are your, your thought process? So someone who's looking at laser cap, I have the older shell version. There's the newer version. That's more vented. Um, how would you, um, should I switch to the vented run?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
The interesting thing about the vented one, this is a, uh, this is, you know, I work with a lot of, um, uh, you know, now very high end plastic surgeons like yourself, but historically I worked with, uh, you know, just these pure transplant hair transplant. Well, so you do all sorts of sorts of surgeries all over the body, right?
Dr. Shah:
Only facing hair.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Oh, face and hair. Well, that's planning. Um, so, um, uh, historically it's been these transplant surgeons, you know, just these pure, uh, surgeons. And they're always asking me for, you know, give me something more innovative, give me something high-tech looking. And so it was kind of a motivation to showcase the technology and to create something that was, uh, what was unique. And so what we did with this I'll show you this, uh, how this goes. Uh, we created a, it's a flat man manufactured, uh, device that has a, uh, front connector band that small, medium, large, extra large. So it conformally fit. It basically hugs your head. That's nice. Uh, you know, you just determined the patient head size and, uh, snapped this thing together. I'll put it back together and then I'll put this baby on and you'll just see how it, uh, how it goes, but it, but it it's the same underlying technology. You know, it's the same, this is happens to be a $300 device. What I'm working on here is a 224 dire device, but it's basically the same underlying tech. And so if we just put this thing on, you'll see how it, uh, how it basically hung my head.
Dr. Shah:
Oh, that's nice. Yeah.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
So yeah. Let me snap this on. Yeah. So that's, there we go. So we're, we're laid out, so you really don't need to cover this with a hat. You just wear it, you know, when you're in your home. Uh, and, um, it's got a, a real, um, you know, we basically hugged your head, uh, but it's so different than the, I mean, this is a lot more expensive. Why? Because it's more difficult to make, I'd make them in lower volume, but some patients, you know, they, well, I want that one. And, uh, so that's fine, but bottom line, you want to send them out with, with a light device, preferably a laser cap. So whichever one you use, um, you know, as long as they get a laser cap,
Dr. Shah:
Do you find a difference in the two different devices as far as results? So if somebody said, Hey, I want the difference between this versus that. And to say, Hey, guess what? I want to make sure I get the best possible results. Um, is there a difference, is there a 5% difference at 20% difference?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Yeah. Again, if we go back to this curve, it hasn't been studied. It hasn't been studied. You know, I think that all of the devices, you know, if you look, if you look here, these are some of the over-the-counter devices. I don't really want to name names, but you can read them. I don't like to upset, you know, competitors. They're all, everybody's doing a good job in the industry. Uh, your industry gets a little tricky. I mean, folks really need to look at it. You know, um, there's a there's hair surgeries that are being performed, uh, off shore that are troublesome. Uh, and so in our industry, in the U S the devices are all pretty good, but, but these over the counter devices are way down on the biologic effects curve. So that's the biologic effects curve right there. And so, uh, like, you know, one of these lower powered ones is way down here on the curve compared to, uh, uh, laser cap to 24, laser cap 300 is a little higher on the curve. Uh, laser gap 80 is still above that. 80 diodes is still above, you know, the vast off-brand laser cap. Uh, and that's because they, the best off brand laser cap decided they're going to do a six minute, uh, five or six minute continuous power. And they turned down the, they were unable to overdrive the, the lasers. And so that was their choice, but I, in my opinion, they're underpowered.
Dr. Shah:
So th that's something that people talk about, you know, that like the, the way you get treated and, um, classically you do a 30 minute pulse every other day. Um, some people talk about doing six minutes every day with a continuous, um, let's talk about the two different protocols, your thoughts on both of those. And,
Dr. Michael Rabin:
And Paul's with a 30 minute poles, if you look at my chart, but 30 minute, so on a, on a 2 24 is delivering about 3.2, three joules per square centimeter, a six minute continuous with the best off-brand cap out there is doing about one Juul. So we're getting three times the power with it. Not because we're better, we're just the circuits different. And, and we're choosing a pulse over a 30 minute, rather than a continuous at six,
Dr. Shah:
No pulse versus continuous, let's say, uh, cause it can delay your KEPCO go continuous or pulse, or it always goes continuous. I was always going to go out post.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
We I've got a continuous protocol. Like this is a continuous path. I can do a continuous protocol because again, all these devices that are on the biologic effects curve, I just prefer the pulse that 30 minutes, because I want more energy per square centimeter. That that's my opinion. Now, based on voting this research,
Dr. Shah:
Do you think it penetrates deeper pulse because, uh, um, of kind of relaxing the cells and melanin doesn't have a chance to block it, then it hits it, or what are your thoughts
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Here? There's more evidence that Paul said certain herps, you know, certain frequencies is better than a continuous, uh, there's more evidence of that, but I couldn't tell you, uh, alter better than continuous for,
Dr. Shah:
Um, and then the protocol. Why, why the protocol is 30 minutes every other day? Like if I said, Hey, Gus, what? I don't like 30 minutes every day. What I want to do is when I brushed my teeth, I'm gonna throw my laser cap on. Um, I actually kind of do this sometimes. I w I would say, Hey, guess what? It takes me 10 minutes to brush my teeth and wash my face and puts it up on. And I'm going to do that every day, rather than doing 30 minutes every other day. Why 30 minutes every other day versus doing 15 minutes a day versus
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, simple answer. The original devices that were studied were dumb devices. Uh, so you'd have to go into the office, uh, and to receive your treatment. And so they had, I think a two, two times a week protocol, uh, certainly not an everyday protocol because you couldn't get in there. And then, uh, the, the, uh, the comb device, I forget what their protocol was, but then there were some other helmet devices, the I grope example, uh, where, uh, they determined we're going to use our every other day protocol or a couple of times a week protocol. And so those were the product kids that were studied at those frequencies. So nobody has studied in every gay protocol, but there's plenty of doctors who say, okay, I'm just going to tell my patient 20 minutes every day or a six minute continuous every day, or it's all good in my opinion,
Dr. Shah:
I've done. That is because if you look at some of the led devices, not for hair, but for like kind of healing red light for post-surgery protocols and things of that nature, lots of them, you use, um, smaller amounts of time every day. Um, so my thought was, Hey, guess what? Let's incorporate this because mitochondria is mitochondria. Let's stimulate mitochondria. Let's get more increases our cellular activity. And so that was my thought process. But again, I have no idea whether that's a better protocol, worse protocol, but that was just kind of my, my variant, when it also out of convenience. I just can't remember if I do something every day. I remember it. If I do something every other day, I forget because if I work out every day, I'm good. If I work out every other day, I'll forget, and I won't do it.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, these are physician devices. You know, these are, uh, by position only, and the physicians can do whatever protocols they want. I mean, the light is generally safe. I mean, you can tell your patient where till the battery runs out, you know, where for two hours, you know, theoretically, there could be an over-treatment it's by phasic. There could be an over-treatment, you know, 10 hours, 20 hours, you know, we don't, we, we don't know. And it's, it's theoretical at these powers. You know, it's still a low power, even though it's five, milliwatt even up to 50, you don't have to 500 milliwatts per square centimeter. It's still considered low pal. You're not cooking anything, not killing anything.
Dr. Shah:
Okay. And so someone who is trying it and to say, I'm going to put a laser cap on what is the amount of time before you say, Hey, guess what? You're going to see something different. And, um, what, what are your thoughts?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, I think that you ought to give, uh, patients, um, uh, uh, four to six months. I think you ought to give them four to six months before you bring them back. I mean, we have a one-year return policy where patients, you know, anytime in the first year can bring it back for any reason, no waste at all to the physician. Then the physician will refund 75% of the purchase price. And then we work it out with a doctor. Uh, but, but yeah, I would give it a good four to six months before you bring the patient back. So repeat photography and even a whole year to, to, you know, cause you know, growing hair is, it's a slow, slow business.
Dr. Shah:
And I think that's kind of speaks to me the quality of laser capitalist sense. Why one of the things I'm a believer relationship captive because, um, anytime you have a company that believes in its product and says, Hey, guess what, if you don't believe in it as a patient, we're going to, we're going to work with you. And, um, anytime I've not gone quality with something, um, whether it's a, it's a vitamin, it's a healthcare equipment, uh, it's a car when you buy a quality product, you know, you have quality, you know, you have the best item and you just feel good about it because whatever reason you feel like you're covered, you're back versus if you buy an inferior product, you're like, well, it didn't work well, you're using the wrong thing. Um, uh, something happened to this product, you know, you're covered, you know, you're in good hands, you know, your power up, what's going to be consistent. You're not worried about, you know, getting one 10 jewels and one jewels. And I see that with a lot of my lasers in the office that some of the older times you would get different things that were tweaked. Uh, and now the newer lasers are not doing that, but I'm imagining it's something like a laser cap that you might have some of the other products that peek out and then go down, uh, is that
Dr. Michael Rabin:
I think there's trouble with, uh, some of the manufacturing with some of the devices. Uh, I mean there's some very good, uh, off-brand, uh, laser caps that are manufactured, but then there's a lot of copies where, uh, you know, I think that there, I don't think there's any safety issues, although, you know, there can be battery safety issues, uh, cause you don't have to lift them battery. Uh, but, but um, I think you get problems with lights out and just, you know, Defax just, just, just issues that, uh, you know, we handle, we have, we have a lifetime warranty policy on the devices, so it's covered for life. We have a small replacement fee between three and five years and then a slight, no replacement fee in the first three years, small one, $250 in three to five years and then $500 after five.
Dr. Shah:
I mean, that's, that's an amazing, that's an amazing product, uh, you know, coverage of something and it speaks to it again. Um, a couple of other questions. So with laser cap, do you notice me, you have a lot of physicians who use this and believe in this product. Do you notice any sort of protocols that people are doing that say, Hey, guess what? This works well with laser cap, is it like, Hey guys, laser cap and Rogaine cap and PRP laser cap. And
Dr. Michael Rabin:
It is synergistic with, with all the hair regrowth and hair regrowth, you don't, you don't want to do experiments on your patients. You don't want to, I mean, some docs will say, well, let me start young laser cap. And then I'm going to add the Rogaine or the topical Finasteride or this or that. But really you want to just come out of the gate and you know, these patients want hair regrow. They don't want to experiment. And they also by different mechanisms, you know, the Finasteride is the DHT block or the minoxidil calcium channel. The, the, the laser, the light is improve cellular respiration in the mitochondria. Uh, the PRP is, you know, in that, in that regenerative genre, we're at the tip of the iceberg with that because the, you know, with the PRP, they're adding stem and, uh, and uh, all sorts of ECM, stimulants and, uh, activating the platelets. And there's a whole slew of things. Light is synergistic, I believe with, with all of it, it's additive and it can be synergistic. So for example, uh, uh, uh, laser Capillus minoxidil. So when you put this on, if you put your, your minoxidil product on and you put, even though the man who says, he's going to
Dr. Shah:
Put minoxidil on first,
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Put it on first and then put the cap on, you, get some warm. If you get an occlusive effect, you get a big bump in absorption of whatever you put on.
Dr. Shah:
That's a great tip because I've actually been doing that the other way. I've been doing the cap, then the minoxidil. So I should actually switch that around. So that's
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Patients that you may get a systemic effect. So you gotta be careful. I mean, not that I documented that, but there's, you're going to get an increased absorption. You know, the dermatologist did the Vaseline studies in the saran wrap study, you know, where they put the topical on and they put this away on, you know, big bump in absorption and it's a similar effect with the occlusion. All right. And then there could be some direct effects with the, with the life. You know, you increase circulation, uh, nitric, oxide, formation, you know, these things may be contributing to the effect of the minoxidil. We haven't studied it, but the sense is that it's a good idea. There's real synergy. And with PRP, that's a whole other issue BR PRP always should be followed with laser cap, always should be followed with photo medicine because there's, there's similar processes going on. Uh, uh, uh, the, the, the PRP the growth factors are supposed to stimulate. Indogenous stem to recruit the indogenous STAM to, uh, improve the, uh, the follicle function. Uh, the light does a similar thing and it's ongoing, you know, after the PRP is done.
Dr. Shah:
Um, you're, you have a, you have a new laboratory, a new scientific research part about laser cap, which I think is also exciting that I don't think there's any other company who's doing that. Um, Can you tell me, uh, some of the things that at least that you're able to talk about that that's going on over there, and some of the things that you're, you're discovering with this, this new arm of laser cap,
Dr. Michael Rabin:
We're trying to put together a PRP plus photo medicine for hair regrowth registry trial. And the idea is that we work with doctors, we look at their PRP, what's the cellular makeup of their PRP. Are they using one times platelet two times, four times, eight times, are they using that? You know, what protocol are they activating? Are they, uh, doing, using additives, et cetera. And then with, or without photo man, we encourage all the docs to use the photo mat. But the idea is that we try to correlate PRP. We try to characterize the PRP in correlated with hair regrowth outcomes. So we also ask them for baseline, we'll ask them for baseline photography, tracker, grants, whatever they're using to measure the baseline and the progress, and see if we can draw some, uh, you know, some correlations between, you know, PRP characterization, views of photo mat. And we have a photo that optics lab set up to, to measure, uh, outputs. So if they say, oh, well, we're using a paradigm where we're using this off-brand or that off-brand, well, we know what those outputs are, uh, that we know what the, what the, um, what the energies are per square centimeter on those devices. And so we, again, are looking to try to correlate these treatments with here we go, defenders.
Dr. Shah:
And I think that's just an important part because with PRP itself, there's so many versions of it that are out. And, um, it, it does a disservice to PRP because there's people who are getting, um, PRP this actually probably not even has a higher, that much higher platelets than normal. And yet people have two times, three times they're actually getting improved improvement in their hair results. And we've tried previous protocols of PRP in the past that have not been as effective as some of our winter we're using right now. Um, so I think that's an exciting part to see that science kind of an inherit kind of going together. And, um, you're seeing these synergies working across fields, which is, I think, amazing for the field.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Yeah. That's I want to document that because there's a lot of anecdotal, uh, I, you know, you've had experiences other, your colleagues have had experiences where they start with one kid, they start with one protocol and they don't like it. Uh, for, for whatever reason, you know, there could be some pain, there could be some bruising, uh, not, not good results. Uh, uh, and then they switched to another protocol and they're getting results, but we'd like to normalize that,
Dr. Shah:
Um, what's the craziest hat you've seen over a laser cap that's covered. What's the craziest activity you've seen someone do?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Uh, well, I would always jog with mine back, you know, when I pre-transplant, when I was trying to grow my hair, I would always jog with mine. So, uh, that was always fun. I put my minoxidil on, put my cap on and I did pretty well with it, but, uh, I ended up with them do a major transplant just cause I just didn't have any hair.
Dr. Shah:
Um, and then the other question on that. So, so you basically, any hat on that, do you think there's an issue with heat if you wear like a winter hat over probably has no effect,
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Well, the laser cap generates some warm, uh, some of the, the, um, you know, the consumer devices don't generate much warrant, but they're not putting out any power. Uh, so the laser can generate some warm. So it's, you know, advisable to wear a, you know, not wear a heavy, heavy hat.
Dr. Shah:
Um, okay, cool. Cool. And then people sometimes always ask the question, am I going to get more of a result with short hair versus long hair? Or you think there's no difference?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Uh, hair will block light, but we put out a lot of light with these devices and, uh, that's number one, number two, uh, you're using the cat because we can see a lot of your scalp. And so if we can see a lot of your scalp, there's lots of photons getting to, and through your scalp, uh, on the other hand, if you get big, darker pink hair. Yeah. You're not, not as there's going to be some block, but it's a light blockage. Uh, now ways to mitigate that, uh, again, the manual says, Hey, don't let your hair, don't use, don't let your butt it's okay. You can do that. This is moisture seal. So patients with, if they've got long, you know, they got thick hair, they can wet it, coma back, exposed, maximum scalp, put their minoxidil on wherever they want to do. And, uh, you know, with the doctor's permission and, uh, but the wage gap.
Dr. Shah:
So, so the only thing, so what is the restriction with laser cap? So people, people talk about that a lot. Um, is there basically don't wear it in the rain is my understanding. Um, and don't shower.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Yeah. I mean, it's low voltage. You're not going to electrocute yourself, but you know, you don't really want to, you know, put the word in the bathtub per se. I think really the only contrary indication is if you've got a neoplasm that being directly, you know, a cancer on your scalp, but you know, what Bazell or a squamous cell or whatever it is, um, uh, uh, and you're, you know, you're directly irradiating that your photo stimulating not only your follicles, but, uh, but a neoplasm. And so you'll, you could wrap up, uh, I mean, and it's not, it's not a crisis because those are slow growing, but then you always have to worry about, um, uh, um, melanoma, you know, if you've got, uh, but, but, you know, but, and, and that's your job as a doc, you know, you need to look patients over. Absolutely.
Dr. Shah:
It's, it's one of the areas that's oftentimes missed is scalp melanoma. It's one of the, uh, the bad spots that melanoma can exist. Uh, the back of the scalp are two areas that patients oftentimes melanomas missed. Um, but most of my patients are wearing the laser cap. Like you're talking about, uh, the hair obstruct unit is not as much of an issue. Um, again, I, I don't think I have so much see-through, but I do have some see-through, so,
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Oh, but you've got a lot of hair. I would advise you, you know, when you put them in Occidental on,
Dr. Shah:
Uh, I'll probably change that protocol, put that under that's a great tip. So could keep your hair wet for the minoxidil and put the cap on. Um, I still probably will do my brushing teeth protocol that I do at night, just because otherwise, if I don't do everything every day, I forget
Dr. Michael Rabin:
It's better for the minoxidil. Cause minoxidil is in every day. So that was supposed to be twice a day, but you could do it once a day, if you do it by way, you do just do it once.
Dr. Shah:
Um, so where do you see laser cap in five years, 10 years. Anywhere where you say, Hey, guess what? This is going to go, uh, is laser cap gonna stay here? Is it going to go other spots? Are people, is it going to be, um, different power outputs? Where do you see, where do you see the product going in the next
Dr. Michael Rabin:
Saying, we're going to increase the power and the energy. And I've got some technology that, um, some promising technology that, uh, this time I might get the patents right. Who knows, um, you know, protect all the doctors out there. Uh, um, uh, so yeah, I think we want to see more power. Uh, we set up a cell lab, a PRP cell lab. We're all, we're, we're also setting up a wet lab to do some bench studies on, um, uh, hair follicles in the, in the Petri dish, in the culture dish. So we can directly irradiate them and take certain measurements, yellow, emulsify the, um, the dermal papilla and measure growth factors and look for changes. So that wet lab is going to give us some good information to try to zero in on, um, uh, you know, if I go back to that bite phase of dose response curve, should we be here or should we be over here? Or should we be there? We want to kind of just try to zero in, on optimal power and time. And then wavelength, there's a little debate, but most of these are all red light, uh, 6, 6, 6 56, 60 nanometer. There's some thought, and maybe we, we should look at infrared, but it, but the bench work lately is showing that the red at six 60 seems to be working the best. So why change?
Dr. Shah:
Um, and so for power, for consumers looking at different models, it's not just the number of diodes. Um, it's not just the power, it's not just the area. It's not just continuous versus it's kind of like all of that makes everything better. Is that true?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
You need diet because you want to get some coverage. You don't want to have, you know, you don't want to just have a few diodes, uh, uh, uh, across a large area, because then there's a lot of follicles that aren't getting much white. So you want to get some uniformity, which means you need more diets. Uh, but then it's what those guys are putting out. You know, which the power, it's the middle of Watts that they're, that they're putting out. Uh, and then the time period, because middle last times, time, that's the Juul. That's the energy, uh, four centimeter is, uh, you know, is, is, is really the ultimate measurement, the energy per square centimeter and Juul is
Dr. Shah:
Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So, uh, last question I always ask everyone is, um, what are, um, just in general for the, uh, kind of off topic things, what are three things you wish to see different and just, I say healthcare or healthiness or any of those things, it doesn't have to be related to hair. It can be related to hair, can involve anything. So three things, you can make it two things. Uh, but, um, what are three things you would love to see changed in, in that aspect?
Dr. Michael Rabin:
I think that, um, I first off, I think you guys are doing some incredible work, you know, the, the, the plastic surgeons and the transplant guys and gals are doing, you know, miracles with, with patients and, you know, medically we're, you know, we're, we're, we're there to, to, uh, to support and to, um, you know, slow the loss, stop loss, reverse it, we're there to help, but the surgery you folks do is incredible that I say that, so don't do much different other than just keep improving what you're doing on the inside. You know, the, the medicines that we take, uh, the, the diseases that we get, you know, the heart disease, the Alzheimer's, um, uh, I think it's all preventable. I think it's all, I, I think it, I think we can live to a ripe old age and then drop dead. That's what I think.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
And I think it, um, you know, we'd get tremendous environmental toxins, uh, the food that we eat, the air that we breathe, you know, everything around us, there's all sorts of toxins and pollutants. Um, uh, but there may be, you know, there may be some ways to mitigate that, to, to manage that, uh, the diet can change. Uh, and, and the medicines that we take, um, I've been turned on recently to work on molecular medicine. I know that it's probably not something that resonates with you, but the anti-aging doctors, uh, who are on the cutting edge of things who are, you know, doing intravenous vitamins and, you know, doing tea relations. And I think there are, I really think they're onto something. And I think light can play a big role in that as well in, uh, in, in keeping patients healthy.
Dr. Shah:
Um, actually the anti-aging part that you talk about is actually super fascinating for us because with hair, um, we don't just use one modality. I mean, we always want to be on the cutting edge. So things that we're using in the office include not this PRP, but things like exosomes, which are messengers sent back and forth to the cells, as you know, um, also, uh, working with, um, a bunch of the things, growth factors. So kind of all of these things, stimulating hair, all kind of working together. And it's interesting. Also you mentioned environmental toxins because all of these things, environmental food toxins affect our mitochondria and with the laser cap, uh, one of the things you're going to do is you're going to be stimulating your mitochondria to improve that. Uh, so they all kind of work together. So get rid of those toxins to your mitochondria can work better, but also stimulate them.
Dr. Shah:
Um, and then, uh, so all of that's working together. Um, I think, uh, amazing what you've done amazing, what you've accomplished and, um, imitation is the best form of flattery. Although if I had a company where people are copying me and sort of ripping off my product, I don't know if I think that that way, but, um, uh, and I think there's probably more doctors who, uh, need to personally. Thank you. I'll thank you in person. Thank you for, um, all that you've done for, um, this science of lasers. Inherit. Thank you for my patients. Thank you for myself. Cause I use it.
Dr. Michael Rabin:
You are welcome and keep growing, keep buying taps and growing hair.
Dr. Shah:
Oh, I want my hair. Next time I talked to you. I want it to be this big.